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Database Forum / General DB Topics / General DB Topics / August 2004

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MySQL vs DBaseIV or higher

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Tony - 20 Aug 2004 04:31 GMT
I am not familiar with Dbase at all. Can some give a "MySQL vs Dbase"
comparison? Thanks a lot

Tony
Laconic2 - 20 Aug 2004 14:47 GMT
> I am not familiar with Dbase at all. Can some give a "MySQL vs Dbase"
> comparison? Thanks a lot

Here's what I think I know.  Some of it could be wrong history.

Dbase became widely known during the Heydey of CP/M.  It was based on an
earlier product called "Vulcan".

It was a single user, desktop oriented database tool.  As such, it was
dismissed as a mere toy by people building massive systems around the twin
concepts of on line transaction processing,  and information integragion and
sharing.  Sad to say,  I was one of the people who dismissed it, for a
while.

It's interface language was considerably more primitive than SQL.
Nevertheless,  it did make storing and using m:n relationships feasable at
the desktop level,  and you could use it to prepare reports.  Those two
capabilities were enough to guarantee its survival.

Within a few years,  "IBM Compatible"  became the de facto standard for
desktop systems,  MS-DOS became the de facto standard for desktop operating
systems,  and SQL became the de facto standard for database interface.  For
a while,  everybody in the Desktop world had heard of Dbase.  It was almost
a de facto standard of its own.  Then other entrants like Clipper or Paradox
grew up to compete in the same arena.

De facto standards never gain universal acceptance,  and there have been
passionate and articulate opponents of all three of the standards I
mentioned above.  But de facto standards have a source of strength that de
jure standards usually do not:  a lot of people accept them merely because a
lot of other people have already accepted them.

I do not know the history of how SQL was grafted onto Dbase.  But even
without knowing the history,  I'm pretty sure it was a graft.

I know nothing about MySQL other than the name.

The name itself suggests to me the ultimate in desktop fantasies:  "I am a
rock; I am an island.  I touch no one, and no one touches me."  That fantasy
contains the seeds of its own doom.  The minute a desktop developer shows
his work to three other people,  and two of them say,  "Hey that's great!
Can I use it, too?"  the rest of the trajectory is certain, for those of us
who have learned from history.
Gene Wirchenko - 20 Aug 2004 17:12 GMT
>> I am not familiar with Dbase at all. Can some give a "MySQL vs Dbase"
>> comparison? Thanks a lot
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>It was a single user, desktop oriented database tool.  As such, it was
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    A network version was available.  Various xBASEs are still
available including one called "dBASE".

    The latest in this genre is Microsoft Visual FoxPro.  The current
version is 8 with 9 in beta.  You can download the beta (about 75 MB)
from http://msdn.microsoft.com/vfoxpro/letters/.  (Scroll down to the
section about the beta refresh which updates some of the tools.  The
refresh is about 3 MB.)  The beta expires April 1, 2005.

>dismissed as a mere toy by people building massive systems around the twin
>concepts of on line transaction processing,  and information integragion and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>the desktop level,  and you could use it to prepare reports.  Those two
>capabilities were enough to guarantee its survival.

    It is record-oriented.  SQL is set-based.  Sometimes,
record-oriented works better; sometimes set-based does.  I use both in
a client billing system I have written.

>Within a few years,  "IBM Compatible"  became the de facto standard for
>desktop systems,  MS-DOS became the de facto standard for desktop operating
>systems,  and SQL became the de facto standard for database interface.  For
>a while,  everybody in the Desktop world had heard of Dbase.  It was almost
>a de facto standard of its own.  Then other entrants like Clipper or Paradox
>grew up to compete in the same arena.

    Also FoxBASE, later FoxPro.  Fox got started in the CP/M days.

>De facto standards never gain universal acceptance,  and there have been
>passionate and articulate opponents of all three of the standards I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I do not know the history of how SQL was grafted onto Dbase.  But even
>without knowing the history,  I'm pretty sure it was a graft.

    A smear word.  How would you add SQL and have it not be a graft?

>I know nothing about MySQL other than the name.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Can I use it, too?"  the rest of the trajectory is certain, for those of us
>who have learned from history.

    I understand from dbdebunk.com that it does not handle FK at all,
and this is touted as an advantage.  Is this still the case?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
    I have preferences.
    You have biases.
    He/She has prejudices.
Laconic2 - 20 Aug 2004 17:31 GMT
>      A smear word.  How would you add SQL and have it not be a graft?

You may be right.  I may have maligned Dbase by using a smear word.  Sorry
if I did.

As far as how SQL can be added and not look like a graft,  I'll point you to
the example of DEC Rdb/VMS.

From 1984 to 1986,  the primary interface to Rdb/VMS was an interface called
RDO.  At the time,  the description of RDO was "Datatrieve done right".
When Rdb version 3 was released, it had SQL available as an "alternative"
inteface.  By version 4 or 5,  SQL was the primary interface, and RDO was
declared "mature"  (like me.)

But it looks,  for all the world,  as if Rdb had been planned from the git
go to work with a language like SQL.  It doesn't look like a graft at all.
In part this is because Rdb was set oriented from the beginning.  In part it
was due to the careful layering of the internals of Rdb.

By the way,  thanks for adding Foxbase to the mix.  It's an important part
of the story,  and I overlooked it completely.
Gene Wirchenko - 21 Aug 2004 02:35 GMT
>>      A smear word.  How would you add SQL and have it not be a graft?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>As far as how SQL can be added and not look like a graft,  I'll point you to
>the example of DEC Rdb/VMS.

    Not that SQL is not somewhat of a botch according to
dbdebunk.com.

>From 1984 to 1986,  the primary interface to Rdb/VMS was an interface called
>RDO.  At the time,  the description of RDO was "Datatrieve done right".
>When Rdb version 3 was released, it had SQL available as an "alternative"
>inteface.  By version 4 or 5,  SQL was the primary interface, and RDO was
>declared "mature"  (like me.)

    I am 43 myself.  I am not mature yet.

>But it looks,  for all the world,  as if Rdb had been planned from the git
>go to work with a language like SQL.  It doesn't look like a graft at all.
>In part this is because Rdb was set oriented from the beginning.  In part it
>was due to the careful layering of the internals of Rdb.

    I use a mix of xBASE and SQL.  For some things, record-level
processing works great, and for others, SQL is the way to go.  I often
use SQL to grab a set of records and xBASE to grovel over them.

>By the way,  thanks for adding Foxbase to the mix.  It's an important part
>of the story,  and I overlooked it completely.

    It made quite a splash.  dBASE and more and faster, too.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
    I have preferences.
    You have biases.
    He/She has prejudices.
michael newport - 22 Aug 2004 15:09 GMT
...but why bother with these toys
why not use Ingres ?
Gene Wirchenko - 22 Aug 2004 16:58 GMT
>...but why bother with these toys
>why not use Ingres ?

    Then, I would be playing with your toys.  I prefer having my own.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
    I have preferences.
    You have biases.
    He/She has prejudices.
Lemming - 23 Aug 2004 00:36 GMT
>     I understand from dbdebunk.com that it does not handle FK at all,
>and this is touted as an advantage.  Is this still the case?

AFAIK vanilla MySQL supports FK syntax, but doesn't enforce it (i.e.
FK constraints in DDL are treated as comment entries).  MySQL with
InnoDB does enforce FK constraints.  I think I remember reading
something on the MySQL site about "MaxDB" (the next generation of
MySQL?) I *think* it supports RI constraints, but I've never played
with it so I can't be sure.

Lemming
Signature

Curiosity *may* have killed Schrodinger's cat.

Tony - 24 Aug 2004 00:10 GMT
> >     I understand from dbdebunk.com that it does not handle FK at all,
> >and this is touted as an advantage.  Is this still the case?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Lemming

I am using InnoDB right now. It does enfore FK constraints. No need to
write a trigger.

Tony
Tony - 24 Aug 2004 00:08 GMT
Thanks you for fast reponses to my question.

Well now that I know what is the different between dbaseIV and MySQL,
I want to dig deeper. Deeper in a sense that I am a novice as far as
dbase concern. Actaully I don't even know how to use dbase.

Anyway the concerns I have so far are

1) I tried importing some dbf files into ms access. However I notice
that value of primary key field is not showing in access tables. The
reason I can tell is that I use Excel to open up the dbase table and I
can see those values. However after importing into access, those
values become invisible. I say "become invisible" because I can still
sort the field but I just can't see the values. For some reason those
values become invisible. Any idea?

2) How dbase table is organized?
I know how MySQL and Access are organized. However, since dbase is not
set-oriented, therefore I would like ask "how table in dbase is
related to each other?"

Again. Million thanks to those who response. THANK YOU!

Tony
Gene Wirchenko - 24 Aug 2004 02:34 GMT
>Thanks you for fast reponses to my question.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>sort the field but I just can't see the values. For some reason those
>values become invisible. Any idea?

    No.  What is the type of the primary key column?

>2) How dbase table is organized?
>I know how MySQL and Access are organized. However, since dbase is not
>set-oriented, therefore I would like ask "how table in dbase is
>related to each other?"

    The dBASE family of languages have had SQL for over a decade.
You can download Microsoft Visual FoxPro version 9 beta (about 75 MB)
from
         http://msdn.microsoft.com/vfoxpro/letters/

>Again. Million thanks to those who response. THANK YOU!

    HTH.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
    I have preferences.
    You have biases.
    He/She has prejudices.
 
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