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Database Forum / FoxPro / General FoxPro Topics / July 2008Foxpro 10????
I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. With the news from Microsoft that development has now ceased and it's exclusion from the Visual Studio framework I've been considering moving away to something with more longjevity? Does anyone see a future for VFP? What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft then by others? >I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. Newbie! >With the news from Microsoft that development has now ceased and it's >exclusion from the Visual Studio framework I've been considering moving away >to something with more longjevity? Three answers: 1) The exclusion came first, and it was arguably for the better. I understand that .NETing VFP would have involved trading away some very useful things. 2) Microsoft just does not have stamina, eh? 3) Like? >Does anyone see a future for VFP? Yes. Software does not rot that fast. My editor of choice is WordStar. I got it in 1988. I run it under DOSBox, but it does run. Sure, I wish it handled long filenames and a few other things, but it is a good editor for me. It is quite an indictment that no GUI editor has come close AFAIAC. I will be using WordStar for some time to come. As to VFP, if I have to decide to use something else, I will remember. I will remember how well VFP did even though Microsoft could not be bothered to honestly market it. I will remember how Microsoft screwed over developers going from Fox 2.x to 3 and from 3 to 5 (no support on older versions and changing versions required a new OS). I will remember how they screwed over VB 6 developers. I will remember the nonsense about how a browser has to be in the OS. I will remember two years ago when buying a system and having all of the hoopla about Vista (which was not then out) and how it still is not up to snuff according to many. I doubt that I will go Microsoft. >What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft then >by others? VFP? About none. xBASE in general? There have been various things Out There. I do not know statuses. Maybe, others do. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. > xBASE in general? There have been various things Out There. I > do not know statuses. Maybe, others do. dBase is still out there www.dbase.com xHarbour (OO Clipper) is apparently doing well, and I *believe* includes Linux support. http://www.xharbour.org/ Christof Lange's Guineau looked incredible last I saw it. http://guineu.foxpert.com/ The .NET compiler for VFP is coming along nicely: www.etecnologia.net Exploring just those 4 options could keep a fella mighty busy. <s> Dan PS: couple of promising non-xbase options: RealBasic is the moral successor to VB6, and it's Linux/Windows/Mac x-platform. www.realsoftware.com I've seen a lot of talk about Dabo (GUI for Python, also x-plat). Bonus points: authors are well-known Foxers Ed Leafe and Paul McNett. http://dabodev.com/ (Paul also originated the VFP on Linux dustup.) Gene: WordStar? Really? I remember when that was the word processor. I hope you're joking that you still use it, but it seems like you were serious. ' BR >>I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > You have biases. > He/She has prejudices. >Gene: > >WordStar? Really? I remember when that was the word processor. > >I hope you're joking that you still use it, but it seems like you were >serious. Why would you hope that I am joking? It meets my needs better than any other editor I have used. I also continue to use wheels, too. [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. >>Gene: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You have biases. > He/She has prejudices. Are you still on Windows 98? >>>Gene: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> I also continue to use wheels, too. >Are you still on Windows 98? I have my Windows 98 system on my desk, but I rarely use it. I am on XP. Are you going to push Vista? Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. >>>>Gene: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have my Windows 98 system on my desk, but I rarely use it. I > am on XP. Are you going to push Vista? Not me. Vista does nothing that I need that XP can't do, so I'm planning on sitting it out and waiting for Windows 7. Then I may or may not upgrade. XP is the first OS that Microsoft has made that actually works for me, and I'm in no hurry to move on. I made the mistake of buying into the WinME hype, and I still have two copies of WinME sitting on my shelf. I ran them for a few weeks and went back to Win98. This time around I'm hanging onto my money :). [snip] >> I have my Windows 98 system on my desk, but I rarely use it. I >> am on XP. Are you going to push Vista? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >few weeks and went back to Win98. This time around I'm hanging onto my money >:). I am doing the same as to editors. Note that I claim WordStar is the editor for *me*. I suggest, but do not insist, that others try it. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. > >I've been developing inFoxprofor about 10 years now. > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > You have biases. > He/She has prejudices. Good reply. Wish I still had WordStar running under a DosWindow. I used version 1.1 way back in CPM days, on an Apple II with a plug-in card for the Z80.. Good sentiment on the Microsoft gruff-stuff. I do wish there was a good driver (maybe like the 'Wine') for VFP 6.0 on a Linux system. I'd switch in a New York minute. I am looking for an additional machine with Linux. Used every version of dBASE, Clipper, and Fox up through v6.0. Still on Windows 98 with VFP 6.0.. A little googling would have answered your qestions. >I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. so have a lot of people -- me, since foxplus days.... >With the news from Microsoft that development has now ceased and it's >exclusion from the Visual Studio framework I've been considering moving away >to something with more longjevity? nothing MS does will outlive foxpro -- except "windows" -- even visual basic isn't the same as it was 10 years ago. >Does anyone see a future for VFP? it's dead. >What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft then >by others? zero I'm picking up PHP and MySQL after advice from others and some on this forum. I've been developing in dBASE since 85 and Foxpro since 90s. I've converted all my systems to Open Office and will not give MS anymore money except..xp. No I won't even buy Vista again. Thanks MS. > I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft > then by others? VFP was removed from Visual Studio back when VFP7 was current. Old news. Is there a future for VFP? In your larger shops and mainstream IT in general, VFP is dead. Those still using it are migrating away from it as fast as they can. Few if any IT managers are going to risk their career by starting new development using VFP. VFP apps will be around for many years to come, but they will continue to dwindle in numbers as they have been for the last few years. In the Mom and Pop shops, you will still see some VFP apps for a few years to come, but even they are going to move away from it. It's dead and just waiting for someone to come along and bury it :-) > I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft > then by others? Hi, > Those still using it are migrating away from it as fast as they can. That's not what I see. Fortunately, in smaller companies it's a business decision, not a political decision. Some are migrating, some are staying. > Few if any IT managers are going to risk their career Nope. IT managers that decide on technology because of the impact on their career have switched in the 90ties. IT managers today are either younger folks that replace VFP centric managers. Those usually switch to whatever technology they learned during university/college. Older IT managers that are still supporting VFP applications decide, in my experience, on technical terms rather than career terms. Frequently this means to keep maintaining existing projects in VFP and start new ones in .NET or Java. If there's budget for a rewrite, it depends on several factors what they choose. .NET/Java is typically choosen if the budget is sufficient for a rewrite and managers expect to keep working for a longer period. Often it's not a single project that is the reason not to go with VFP, rather the possibility of having training being paid by this project. If the budget isn't huge, the application is data bound and very inexpensive ($50-$500 a year), the time to retirement isn't that long (10-15 years) or development resources are expensive, managers tend to stay in FoxPro (VFP and FPD). That seems to be the case the farther you go away from the US. My impression is that the most active VFP communities are in Asian, Eastern European and Spanish speaking countries. > but even they are going to move away from it. There's alaways a problem with generalization or drawing a bigger picture from individual incidents. However, one of my clients sold another license of his DOS application a few weeks ago. Sometimes getting work done for a low price is more important than a modern looking UI. > It's dead and just waiting for someone to come along and bury it :-) VB 6 is dead and see how VB developers refuse to accept that. ;-)  SignatureChristof Well said. FWIW, we're hoping to migrate the last of our DOS users to the Windows (VFP) version some time in the next year. ;-) They'll go kicking and screaming because they don't want to replace their Win95 machines. <rofl> Dan > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > VB 6 is dead and see how VB developers refuse to accept that. ;-) > FWIW, we're hoping to migrate the last of our DOS users to the Windows > (VFP) version some time in the next year. ;-) They'll go kicking and > screaming because they don't want to replace their Win95 machines. <rofl> So do they upgrade to Win98b? <s> Bye, Olaf. > With the news from Microsoft that development has now ceased and it's > exclusion from the Visual Studio framework I've been considering moving away > to something with more longjevity? > Does anyone see a future for VFP? I rather see a 64-bit Foxpro than another 32-bit release. Signature@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY. / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you! /( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.26 ^ ^ 11:27:01 up 2 days 14:53 2 users load average: 1.00 1.00 1.00 ? ? (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/ >> With the news from Microsoft that development has now ceased and it's >> exclusion from the Visual Studio framework I've been considering >> moving away to something with more longjevity? >> Does anyone see a future for VFP? > > I rather see a 64-bit Foxpro than another 32-bit release. ... Better... how about a real Visual Foxpro Runtime like Java or .Net? :) Signature@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY. / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you! /( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.26 ^ ^ 18:34:01 up 3 days 22:00 3 users load average: 1.00 1.04 1.00 ? ? (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/ How is .Net a "real runtime" and VFP isn't? SignatureCraig Berntson Microsoft MVP ------------- > ... Better... how about a real Visual Foxpro Runtime like Java or .Net? :) > How is .Net a "real runtime" and VFP isn't? I meant having Foxpro programs running inside a browser runtime, *unchanged*! Just like Java. :P Signature@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY. / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you! /( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.26 ^ ^ 17:38:01 up 4 days 21:04 3 users load average: 1.07 1.10 1.06 ? ? (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/ Ahh.. got... write once, debug everywhere. No thanks. But still doesn't address my question. SignatureCraig Berntson Microsoft MVP ------------- >> How is .Net a "real runtime" and VFP isn't? > > I meant having Foxpro programs running inside a browser runtime, > *unchanged*! Just like Java. :P On Jul 19, 5:40 am, "Man-wai Chang ToDie (33.6k)" <toylet.toy...@gmail.com> wrote: > > How is .Net a "real runtime" and VFP isn't? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ^ ^ 17:38:01 up 4 days 21:04 3 users load average: 1.07 1.10 1.06 > ? ? (CSSA):http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/ I have this quote for you to consider. I have used this product, back in 2001. Works very nicely inside an internet Browser. I designed / wrote FoxPro code, used FoxPro data tables, etc. I am NOT saying this is the "Cat's Meow!" but it is something to think about while you are fishing for ideas. <begin quote> ProLib Software GmbH Active FoxPro Pages So, you're building webpages? And struggle along with VBA, JAVA, ODBC and ADO? Then we have news for you: AFP is an internet server extension that processes program code inside an HTML page. Like Microsoft's ASP technology, it is a script engine for xBase code that let's you dynamically present your data on the internet. But since it does not require ODBC or ADO, access to your data is much faster. And the built-in programming language features 400+ commands and functions for any and all application purposes. *** Highlights *** * Extremely simple programming under Frontpage, Visual Interdev or even under Windows Notepad. * xBase - Code is embedded in HTML - Code. * Ideal for dBase, Clipper and FoxPro programmers. * Object-oriented programming is fully supported but not necessary. * Based on the world's fastest PC Data Base. * Supports multi-processor technology. * Instant live testing without compilation. * Optional compiling results in multiplied speed. * Built-in hooks for individual extension. * Supports HTTP- and AFP-Cookies. * No VBScript, Javascript, or ODBC Driver necessary. * Use any browser. * No code visible outside. * Automatic e-mail in case of error. * Supports encryption tools, memo indexers and WINAPI calls. Copyright: Active FoxPro Pages (AFP) are a product of ProLib Software GmbH in D-83358 Seebruck, Germany. ProLib is the leading supplier of MS Visual FoxPro Tools, AddOns, Training, and Programming in the German-speaking countries of Europe. <end quote> www.GeoCities.Com/glene77is I looked at AFP, and they don't seem to want to sell it. On their site, I could find no purchase information, not even pricing. > On Jul 19, 5:40 am, "Man-wai Chang ToDie (33.6k)" > <toylet.toy...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > www.GeoCities.Com/glene77is > I looked at AFP, and they don't seem to want to sell it. On their site, I > could find no purchase information, not even pricing. [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > >www.GeoCities.Com/glene77is You are right. In 2000, I simply downloaded AFP from the website. I wonder how they pay for the effort? Perhaps they offer programming services using this package. I recall that it was very Xbase in syntax, very FOX 2.x. I am curious about ActiveVFP. F1 Technologies (authors of the Visual Fox Express framework) sells AFP ($499) as well as AFP Express ($99): http://f1tech.com/AFP/press_release.asp [North America only]. - Rush >> I looked at AFP, and they don't seem to want to sell it. On their site, I >> could find no purchase information, not even pricing. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > I am curious about ActiveVFP. Hi Paul, see contacts, they list world wide distributors there. The version you can download is not including a license and therefor has some technical limitations. which prevent you from using it for more than development and test, unless you purchase a license. Bye, Olaf. >> I rather see a 64-bit Foxpro than another 32-bit release. > > ... Better... how about a real Visual Foxpro Runtime like Java or .Net? :) How about gnu or at least a non-Microsoft VFP? The biggest problem VFP has ever had is Microsoft. Get rid of them, and VFP could prosper. And it would be cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux would become very popular very fast. But, as has been repeated often before, it is not an option to say 'get rid of M$'. This implies that 'we' have any power over it. The product belongs to them, and they decide what happens to it. They are not going to release vfp in a million years because of the code within it they want to retain control of. Stephen >>> I rather see a 64-bit Foxpro than another 32-bit release. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would be cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux would become > very popular very fast. Sure, we can say "get rid of M$" any time we want, saying so is always an option. At least over here in the colonies (aka USA) it is, thanks to something we call our Constitution. And what I said is quite likely correct - get MS out of the picture, market VFP as a development tool for Linux, and watch it take over Linux desktops. And we all know this is unlikely to ever happen .... > But, as has been repeated often before, it is not an option to say 'get > rid of M$'. This implies that 'we' have any power over it. The product [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> would be cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux would become >> very popular very fast. Yes you are correct and of course you can say it - whether in the colonies or not (quite what relevance that has I'm not clear, apart perhaps from an indication of somebody living in the past <g>). I was guilty of not being precise in my contribution. I should have said - 'it is not a *realistic* option ...'. Memo to self - be slightly more pedantic in future. Stephen > Sure, we can say "get rid of M$" any time we want, saying so is always an > option. At least over here in the colonies (aka USA) it is, thanks to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>> it would be cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux would >>> become very popular very fast. or "why so can I, so can any man, but will they come... al > Yes you are correct and of course you can say it - whether > in the colonies or not (quite what relevance that has I'm [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>>> cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux >>>> would become very popular very fast. >>> I rather see a 64-bit Foxpro than another 32-bit release. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would be cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux would become > very popular very fast. That's exactly why MS won't turn it loose. [snip] >> How about gnu or at least a non-Microsoft VFP? The biggest problem VFP has >> ever had is Microsoft. Get rid of them, and VFP could prosper. And it >> would be cross-platform again. Think about it - VFP on Linux would become >> very popular very fast. > >That's exactly why MS won't turn it loose. Nope. They will not turn it loose because there is not much upside for them. (We might think more highly of Microsoft if they did it, but that does not seem to be a concern of theirs.) Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. "Gene Wirchenko" <genew@ocis.net> wrote in message > [snip] >>> How about gnu or at least a non-Microsoft VFP? The biggest problem VFP >>> has [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > They will not turn it loose because there is not much upside for > them. That's what I said. VFP on Linux would likely be quite popular. I myself would probably follow up with it. MS does not want to promote Linux; they want to kill Linux. >"Gene Wirchenko" <genew@ocis.net> wrote in message > [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >would probably follow up with it. MS does not want to promote Linux; they >want to kill Linux. I make a distinction. Why should Microsoft go to the trouble of <x> when it will not do them any good? By that reasoning, they are better off just doing nothing. Yes, they do not want to promote anything non-Microsoftian, but I think that my point is the real reason. If Microsoft could crush Linux by freeing VFP -- a fantasy scenario, no? -- or achieve some other Microsoftian goal thereby, I think that they would. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. Hi, > The biggest problem VFP has ever had is Microsoft. Sorry, but I don't agree with that... How long did Fox Software own FoxPro? Less than ten years. Microsoft, on the other hand, owned and developed FoxPro for over 15 years. Fox Software provided the foundation, but the product we have now is largely a Microsoft product. > How about gnu or at least a non-Microsoft VFP? Like http://guineu.foxpert.com. Runs on Windows Mobile, Linux, Mac, Web, 32 bit, 64 bit, etc. SignatureChristof "Christof Wollenhaupt" <msnews.microsoft.com.20050422@prolib.de> wrote: >> The biggest problem VFP has ever had is Microsoft. > >Sorry, but I don't agree with that... How long did Fox Software own FoxPro? >Less than ten years. Microsoft, on the other hand, owned and developed >FoxPro for over 15 years. Fox Software provided the foundation, but the >product we have now is largely a Microsoft product. The same reasoning about Microsoft's efforts also applies to the marketing. How much marketing of VFP by Microsoft have you seen? I do not mean the pretense where marketing was only to the existing VFP developers. Not much? I remember a Webpage of theirs asking about what DBMS one was using. There were dozens of entries, both Microsoft and non-Microsoft products. VFP was not on the list. >> How about gnu or at least a non-Microsoft VFP? > >Like http://guineu.foxpert.com. Runs on Windows Mobile, Linux, Mac, Web, 32 >bit, 64 bit, etc. Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. Hi Gene, > The same reasoning about Microsoft's efforts also applies to the > marketing. How much marketing of VFP by Microsoft have you seen? More than for Visual Interdev, Microsoft Pascal, FrontPage, SourceSafe, PowerShell... also more than I see from Paradox, XHarbour, PowerBuilder, SuperBase, dBase. What I see from Microsoft marketing is either targetted at the consumer market (XBox, Vista, Office, Windows Mobile) or one of the really big products (Windows Server, SQL Server, Visual Studio, MSDN, Microsoft Publishing). There's probably marketing for other tools like the System Management Server, Update services, or whatever, but I don't see them often. Guess they are promoted to their group just like VFP was. Obviously they could have done more marketing for VFP. But they decided not to around the time VFP 5 came out.and have been pretty consistent ever since. Instead of convincing developers of (sort of) competing products like dBase, PowerBuilder, Paradox, etc. to go to VFP, Microsoft wanted them to go to VB. > How much marketing of VFP by Microsoft have you seen? I think I saw an ad once, but I can't remember for sure. It must have been 10 or 12 years ago. The community is making VFP better. See the VFP projects on Codeplex etc. The community always made vfp better anyway, not so much the microsofties. PHP has not done so bad without a corporate sponsor and VFP is way better than it... > I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft > then by others? > The community is making VFP better. See the VFP projects on Codeplex etc. > The community always made vfp better anyway, not so much the microsofties. > PHP has not done so bad without a corporate sponsor and VFP is way better > than it... Not good enough... Look at Clipper 5's crowd. They rewrote the whole thing, under the names of Harbour (the original Harbour-project) and xHarbour. Signature@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY. / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you! /( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.26 ^ ^ 18:16:01 up 5 days 21:42 3 users load average: 1.00 1.01 1.00 ? ? (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/ Never heard of those. I wouldn't want to rewrite anything anyway - that's part of the strength of vfp - stability. Just build on top of it. > Not good enough... Look at Clipper 5's crowd. They rewrote the whole > thing, under the names of Harbour (the original Harbour-project) and > xHarbour. >> The community is making VFP better. See the VFP projects on Codeplex etc. >> The community always made vfp better anyway, not so much the >> microsofties. >> PHP has not done so bad without a corporate sponsor and VFP is way better >> than it... I think you people could do it. :) > Never heard of those. > I wouldn't want to rewrite anything anyway - that's part of the strength of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> thing, under the names of Harbour (the original Harbour-project) and >> xHarbour. Signature@~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY. / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you! /( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.26 ^ ^ 19:07:01 up 6 days 22:33 3 users load average: 1.00 1.01 1.00 ? ? (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa/ > The community is making VFP better. See the VFP projects on Codeplex etc. > The community always made vfp better anyway, not so much the microsofties. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft > > then by others? to Andy, We need some comments about the German developments in VFP. I have found a large support base, but all in Europe. Language barrier. The ActiveFoxPages (AFP) appeared about 2000, and appeared very workable. AFP is available here, in English. Don't forget ActiveVFP which is Open Source. I've tried to take some of the very latest developments for VFP and put them in AVFP. For example, multi-threading and JQuery... > to Andy, > We need some comments about the German developments in VFP. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > workable. > AFP is available here, in English. Anything can still change...We just probably need to push MS or new other company to continue VFP and give them the impression that the big market for VFP is still there and the ability of this development tool is not easy to bury. I think there still enough time to change the course of direction for VFP. Business is very much psychology, if there is still a lot of money to make and to go further with the development, things can change into new direction. So we shall not completely negative about MS threat to abando VFP...they are the one who will loss a lot... > I've been developing in Foxpro for about 10 years now. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What's the chances of VFP being developed further - if not by Microsoft > then by others? |
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