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Database Forum / Informix Topics / October 2004"The Problem with Informix" Article by Philip Howarth, Bloor Research
The Register has an article by Philip Howarth of Bloor Research which fairly clearly describes IBM's problem with Informix marketing: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/19/ibm_informix_db2/ «IBM has a problem with Informix. It is one of those problems that is actually a good problem, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't cause headaches... So, there are circumstances when it makes sense for IBM to promote the use of Informix as opposed to DB2. But, and here is the nub, it cannot be seen to be promoting anything other than DB2, since the company has put all of its database eggs into the DB2 basket... In other words, there is some seriously bad branding and marketing going on here...» Sincerely, Christopher Coleman Acting President Kansas City Informix Users Group www.iiug.org/kciug Database Analyst Pharmacy Division Mediware Information Systems, Inc. I have heard that IBM has difficulty selling outside its installed base, that is, it does not build new customer sales as rapidly as one would expect it to in either hardware or software. They 'alledgedly' do well with existing customers, but getting new ones is not IBMs' strength. Don't know if this is true or not, but it would be intersting to know what big/notable sales are hitting IBM for DB2 vs Informix or visa versa. Even as bad as Informix marketing was pre-IBM, we used to hear dribbles of new customer wins. Now we hear nothing, either for DB2 or Informix. Can't remember the last time I heard anything about new customers going to DB2 or Informix. -DG- > The Register has an article by Philip Howarth of Bloor Research which > fairly clearly describes IBM's problem with Informix marketing: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Pharmacy Division > Mediware Information Systems, Inc. I can't comment on Informix, but I know first hand that DB2 is selling into what IBM calls the "whitespace" (companies that previously had no IBM at all in their shop). Many of the customers I deal with migrate from Oracle, Sybase or MS SQL Server to DB2 for LUW. Among others I had this year banks, money transfer and retail. All of which end customer migrations. Of course that doesn't mean migration is the majority of the sales. It's just a reflection of my day to day work. Also note that DB2 is growing in SMB which is (as the article correctly points out) not IBM home turf, but it requires a lot of DB2 Express licenses to feed the family. IMHO IBM isn't pushing reference customers strongly enough. Cheers Serge > I can't comment on Informix, but I know first hand that DB2 is selling > into what IBM calls the "whitespace" (companies that previously had no [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > points out) not IBM home turf, but it requires a lot of DB2 Express > licenses to feed the family. Presumably growing from a lowish starting point? > IMHO IBM isn't pushing reference customers strongly enough. Probably you mean in DB2, but the same must be the case in Informix. The last time I looked at this section of the website there were just two such Informix stories: a university in America, and the El Salvador government. Some big, big companies here in the UK - and I don;t doubt elsewhere - are dependent upon Informix technology, and indeed some recent marketing around this has been aimed at the reseller community but, as noted, IBM can't bring itself to aim such messages at the wider public. >>I can't comment on Informix, but I know first hand that DB2 is selling >>into what IBM calls the "whitespace" (companies that previously had no [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Presumably growing from a lowish starting point? Yes. DB2 V8.2 is focussing on this new DB2 market. >>IMHO IBM isn't pushing reference customers strongly enough. > Probably you mean in DB2, but the same must be the case in Informix. The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > this has been aimed at the reseller community but, as noted, IBM can't bring > itself to aim such messages at the wider public. It's a general problem. Supposedly there are a couple of things coming together here - let me see if I get that straight... First the US justice system seems to have caused some grief in the past with reference customers (not necessarily IBM's) being liable for giving "bad advise". Second, there are certain rules about what incentive a vendor can give to gain a reference. IBM at large, as always, tends to stay far away from anything that can be seen as illegal. Other vendors may be less concerned about giving deep discounts in return for a reference. When you're talking millions of $ funny things happen and it pays to be suspicious. Best investment may be to feed that DBA of the reference account some beer and see what the real story is... Cheers Serge > First the US justice system seems to have caused some grief in the past > with reference customers (not necessarily IBM's) being liable for giving > "bad advise". What did that "I" stand for again? :-) > Second, there are certain rules about what incentive a vendor can give > to gain a reference. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > suspicious. Best investment may be to feed that DBA of the reference > account some beer and see what the real story is... Actually, I wasn't thinking at all about incentives. Why should customers necessarily be paid to say nice things about Informix? I know that the IS Director at our biggest customer - a symbol group similar to 7-11 in the US - would be delighted and flattered to appear in pro-Informix articles. But it would have to be on her own terms - she'd insist on pointing out negatives, as well as positives, where they exist - and my experience of IBM publicity is that they'd want to control everything to the nth degree. I mentioned in an earlier post that we had a successful sale of Informix to a new online gaming company. We got this up and running from a standing start in just six weeks and from a number of perspectives - "sexy" business; quick implementation; in-built HA features of Informix - this is a pretty good story. The customer has agreed to our doing a PR story around the project. I't's going to cost us perhaps US$5,000 in PR costs. I don't doubt that IBM's PR teams wuld put up half of this if we asked, but the bureaucracy, the pre-conditions and the consequent delay would be such that it's just easier to do it ourselves ... > Best investment may be to feed that DBA of the reference > account some beer and see what the real story is... Something Serge and I agree on. By all means always, always, always talk to the DBA's. > Other vendors may be less concerned about giving deep discounts in return for a reference. Nobody discounts for references. All vendors discount, and IBM is extremely aggressive with it's discounting. And IBM's lack of references for DB2 has nothing to do with an unwillingness to discount. Serge - these are completely opprobrious comments and totally unlike you. Bad day ? >> Best investment may be to feed that DBA of the reference >> account some beer and see what the real story is... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > extremely aggressive with it's discounting. And IBM's lack of references > for DB2 has nothing to do with an unwillingness to discount. A little "e.g." in front of discount would have been in order. I stand by the gist of my post. Let's say IBM is working less hard to get references because they are more conservative as a company. > Serge - these are completely opprobrious comments and totally unlike > you. Bad day ? A new word :-) In deed I am sick@home. Does it show? Maybe I shouldn't have donated my flu-shot to that friendly grama south of the border ;-) Cheers Serge > opprobrious comments Strewth, digger deviant -- that's a big word!  SignatureStrewth! Stick a sock in it, Sheila! > Don't know if this is true or not, but it would be intersting to know > what big/notable sales are hitting IBM for DB2 vs Informix or visa versa. > Even as bad as Informix marketing was pre-IBM, we used to hear dribbles of > new customer wins. Now we hear nothing, either for DB2 or Informix. Can't > remember the last time I heard anything about new customers going to DB2 > or Informix. We supplied IDS to a new on-line gaming "Push the red button on your Sky handset now" business which went live last month. But you are correct, such successes are few and far between on IDS. I can't comment on new DB2 UDB sales as, although we are permitted to sell new DB2 licences, we never have, but as I've reported before we find DB2 UDB sites very thin on the ground in the UK: seemingly much more scarce than Informix. (One problem with contacting DB2 customers on Linux/UNIX is that, from a marketing/mailing list perspective, such customers are difficult to isolate fromthe thousands of users who are listed as DB2 users because they have bought an AS/400). > We supplied IDS to a new on-line gaming "Push the red button on your Sky > handset now" business which went live last month. But you are correct, such > successes are few and far between on IDS. Or they are never heard of Neil. Currently working in a Media/Financial company and they have had to install IDS due to a VAR application. The VAR uses it as a back end and has been using it to write trading applications for a number of years. Assuming the project goes to plan the application could be a big installation. Like yourself Neil the IDS installation was due to a Software house using IDS as a back end DB. I am sure there are a lot more of these out there. In my opinion there are a lot of small companies who would use IDS as a back-end database because of the ease of use, upgrade path and more importantly functionality/performance it gives not to mention the HA aspect which has been used in DB2. It generally works OK even when it is not configured to its true potential I guess like any other db but I am a bit biased and think Informix is better :-) But I guess time will tell what will happen. Traveller > The Register has an article by Philip Howarth of Bloor Research which > fairly clearly describes IBM's problem with Informix marketing: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/19/ibm_informix_db2/ Another section: " Funnily enough, IBM is actually doing a lot with Informix, it has recently introduced the new CopperEye Datablade ..." I suppose, pedantically, this is true as IBM amongst others has "introduced" it, but as with many datablades Coppereye is in fact a product developed entirely separately from IBM, by the eponymous Copperye company in England. > The Register has an article by Philip Howarth of Bloor Research which > fairly clearly describes IBM's problem with Informix marketing: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/19/ibm_informix_db2/ [SNIP] > So, there are circumstances when it makes sense for IBM to promote the > use of Informix as opposed to DB2. But, and here is the nub, it cannot [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In other words, there is some seriously bad branding and marketing > going on here...» Yup. Thats the story, but its not new. The marketing of DB2 as the brand and the product started long before the Informix acquistion. But what do you do? Do you change the name of the product and keep DB2 as the brand? Do you change the name of the brand and keep DB2 as the product? Customers still call DB2 EEE when the new name is DB2 UDB ESE w DPF or something like that.... ;-) My point is that IBM, in their infinite wisdom created a brand and a product with the same name. Even if you change the name of either, it will be very expensive to rebrand and wouldn't be effective. Take a simple test... Do you say DB2 IDS or Informix IDS? (Old habits die hard... ;-) But the interesting thing is that Bloor also got the cross pollenation of the products line correct. Items from heritage Informix's R&D are in DB2 and vice a versa. So IBM is capitalizing on Informix in the OEM space and DB2 as their go to in the main space. Its actually a good thing. Only now IBM has to train their sale critters that in the DB Space, they have to first listen to their customer's needs and then consider which product to lead with. ;-)(IDS 9.x? DB2 V8? Cloudscape? RedBrick? ...) (There's also U2 and IMS but hey, lets not go there.) In truth, the bottom line is that the combined IBM/Informix Intellectual Property puts IBM as the leader in Database technology. For those readers here, what it means is that the death of Informix was greatly exaggerated. The sad thing is that it took this long for people to figure it out. ;-) But hey, what do I know? A free clue... Oh and for all those who say the Database wars are over... Naw... Just taking a nap. If it took this long for the world to figure out that Informix is still alive and kicking, how long do you think it will take before they realize what features are going to be a must have? ;-) >For those readers here, what it means is that the death of Informix was >greatly exaggerated. The sad thing is that it took this long for people >to figure it out. ;-) Or it took IBM that long to figure out exactly what they bought . . . but that's another thread. JWC >>For those readers here, what it means is that the death of Informix was >>greatly exaggerated. The sad thing is that it took this long for people [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > JWC Uhm I wasn't being specific. I meant the industry as a whole and of course that includes IBM. > For those readers here, what it means is that the death of Informix was > greatly exaggerated. The sad thing is that it took this long for people > to figure it out. ;-) The death was not "greatly exaggerated", it was eminent, and it happened. Tell me where there is an Informix presence anywhere that matters. Informix is history. The only place it matters is where it already exists, big in the minds of current, existing accounts, outside of that it doesn't matter. When Informix is marketed, if ever, pigs will indeed fly. -DG- > The death was not "greatly exaggerated", it was eminent, and it happened. > Tell me where there is an Informix presence anywhere that matters. Informix > is history. The only place it matters is where it already exists, big in the > minds of current, existing accounts, outside of that it doesn't matter. When > Informix is marketed, if ever, pigs will indeed fly. As much as I want to disagree with Data Goob I find it hard not to. As I have seen the Job market in Informix (Europe) just literally die away. That tends to be an indicator as to how well a product is doing as more jobs means more people using it. Rather simple way of looking at it I know but supply and demand comes to mind. No demand tells you what is happening with Informix in europe. Come across people now who have never heard of Informix :-( Traveller > Come > across people now who have never heard of Informix :-( Apart from the obvious comments about "a Kodak moment", I've found that I've always come across more people who have never heard of Informix than those that have. SignatureStrewth! Stick a sock in it, Sheila! Sorry to top post... There are a lot of people still running Sybase today. Not a lot of new customers, but even though the customer base is shrinking it still exists. The same is true of IDS and the difference is that unlike Sybase, IDS is now under IBM and is going to be around for quite some time. Then there are a lot of people who don't know who Dick Pick was, or ever heard of Revelation. Or I just saw a thread on Knowledgeman. Or there's Progress. Ever hear of those products? The point being, the lack of brand recognition doesn't mean that there isn't life in a product. ;-) Remember that ad done by Finocchio/Dexmier? The one with the hand holding the phone? 9/10 calls pass through an Informix database or something like that... When you oem a product, not many people care whats inside, as long as it does its job. [SNIP] > As much as I want to disagree with Data Goob I find it hard not to. As > I have seen the Job market in Informix (Europe) just literally die [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Traveller >> For those readers here, what it means is that the death of Informix >> was greatly exaggerated. The sad thing is that it took this long for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -DG- Uhm no. You're wrong. ;-) <Forrest Gump Mode > "And thats all I'm gonna say on the matter..." </Forrest Gump Mode> I really don't think that IBM should waste time/money/effort trying to defend IDS vs DB2. Instead it should be IBM DB2 Information Management technologies against the competition. NCR, Oracle, Sybase, etc ... all targets. Don't lose focus on that. But hey, I'm just a nobody. What do I know? Suppose I'm a hospital director and need new software because the existing one can not scale. An application vendor proposes a solution based on Informix. One of the question I would ask him is: will the Informix database have an eternal life? What will be the answer? What will the competitors in the application space say, if their product is based on Oracle or SQL Server or DB2 or ... Bernard Dhooghe > The Register has an article by Philip Howarth of Bloor Research which > fairly clearly describes IBM's problem with Informix marketing: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Pharmacy Division > Mediware Information Systems, Inc. Good point(s). I recently had a discussion with a client who uses an application that runs on an HP3000. This customer is as passionate about the HP3000 as many Informixites are about Informix. He told me his HP3000 server just runs and runs and runs, compared to what he has had to go through with his other platforms. Personally I view the HP3000 as quite retarded, but it doesn't matter, it's all about the application. He delivers real business value back to his company and produces results. This guy couldn't care less what he uses, his management loves the results. He's got SQL-Server, and Oracle as well. Like a lot of companies, the IT department is application-focused, not religious about anything they use. Much of your choice should have less to do with what database, and more to do with the application, and can it deliver business value back to the business. If it's running Informix behind the scenes, what will be the business value if you can't support it? That would be my biggest concern. I would make sure if they're running Informix behind the scenes that they include the support for you irrespective of the region or market you work in, and provide an exit strategy / migration path to another DB if the situation mitigates the need to migrate. -DG- > Suppose I'm a hospital director and need new software because the > existing one can not scale. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>Pharmacy Division >>Mediware Information Systems, Inc. > Good point(s). [SNIP] > Much of your choice should have less to do with what database, > and more to do with the application, and can it deliver business [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -DG- [SNIP] Now that funny. On one hand you say Informix is dead because you can't find anyone using it. On the other hand, IBM is saying Informix is alive and well and has a planned life. Eventually IDS and DB2 will have the same features and APIs so that migration would be fairly painless. Informix support is not going away. Application vendors, outside of IBM's control are starting not to support Informix. This is due to the pure economic costs associated with supporting a platform. The numbers (new customer revenue vs cost of maintaining a platform) don't make sense. So you limit the platforms to which you feel there will be customer demand. But if you're an OEM customer, Informix is still a very viable option. Speaking of which, what's happening on the Cloudscape front these days? As a rule, I try not to feed trolls, but Bernard Dhooghe brought up a scenario in which I have some expertise: > Suppose I'm a hospital director and need new software because the > existing one can not scale. > > An application vendor proposes a solution based on Informix. Conveniently, I work for an application vendor whose hospital pharmacy solution is based on Informix. > One of the question I would ask him is: will the Informix database > have an eternal life? We frankly do not get this question very often. Religion does not come up in many sales meetings that I know of. Generally, the hospital director does not care about the database because it is invisible. If they start asking, usually because they have been prompted by their IT department, we explain that using IDS allows the database server to remain closer to invisible than any other options. What our Sales team should do is convince the director that he does not need to worry about it, because our development already has. Our primary competitor offers a solution based on DB2. Therefore, if we have to discuss databases, we talk about the features they are using in DB2 which are stable in and come from IDS. The reason IDS is still doing so well in OEM solutions is precisely because of the fact that it can remain invisible and do the job better. In situations where DBMS name recognition is a major factor, too often the least good database engine (hint: Ms. Squeal) wins. What IBM needs to realise is that IDS fits in this market and that they can and should sell it. IDS does not need to be known by everyone. It will never be a home user's app. But IBM can leverage its value to OEM's. As for the long-term viability of IDS, this is where we can leverage IBM. As an IBM product, IDS is liable to A) outlive the customer's need; B) outlive our application's lifecycle; C) outlive my company and the customer's. These opinions are my own, of course, and should not be construed to reflect Mediware policy, sales, longevity, etc., standard disclaimer, etc., don't get me in trouble with the SEC, the FTC, or the PHB, please, etc... Sincerely, Christopher Coleman Acting President Kansas City Informix Users Group www.iiug.org/kciug Database Analyst Pharmacy Division Mediware Information Systems, Inc. |
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