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Database Forum / Informix Topics / August 2008

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The funny thing about numbers is that they're just numbers...

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Ian Michael Gumby - 29 Aug 2008 14:17 GMT
While Eric brings up an excellent point:
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN2634118720080826?pa
geNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0


Its just numbers and its only a guess as to how the market breaks down.  But assuming that it is accurate...

The comments made by the analyst do show that IBM SWG IM is doing a pretty poor job of getting the word out.
It seems that Ambush doesn't like to spend money on marketing.

It also seems that Ambush doesn't understand how to motivate sales critters either.
Most of my local sales critters have moved on to different companies, even to Oracle. So I may be out of touch, but I haven't heard anything about a sales program to take out Sybase from financial accounts. And no, it won't happen any time soon, because IBM didn't seed the market.

Unlike Timmy who wants to seed the "developers", the real way to seed the market is to give that market segment a story or an example of how and why IDS is better than their current solution. Its called seeding the niche. By doing this, you now have a story that the sales reps can sell. Selling the story, sells the product. Only no such program exists.
(And when will this simple concept sink in to IBM's thick skulls? God only knows...)

IBM is good about spinning their numbers however. They can say that they don't break numbers down to the public because its misleading and has no effect on the overall numbers, however they also hide the numbers/growth, due to acquisitions since they are bringing new products to market with new revenue streams so that the overall revenue stream grows, and the growth of individual products gets lost in the flow of things.
So IBM can spin numbers when they want to.

But this is only a part of the market.
When you ask a customer as to why they buy a database, most don't know. Thats because the database is part of an application that they are purchasing for their business.

Most companies are also rather small. There are more companies in the SMB market than there are in the Aligned and Integrated market.
Most of these companies have *tiny* (relative to a General Electric or a Hyatt, or a Sears) budget for IT. So they are going to go with the lowest cost alternative that meets their needs. This means *MICROSOFT*. Microsoft only supports Microsoft on Microsoft products. So they don't have to worry about maintaining ports to different flavors of OSs and different major releases of the OS. That's a big advantage. So what if the product doesn't scale. It will meet your needs today, and probably tomorrow unless you really grow quickly and then, well that would be someone elses job to worry about. After all, if this happens, you cash out your stock options and move on to the next big thing. ;-)

So Microsoft is outselling IBM's boxes. That's ok. But IBM isn't targeting the niche environments where their products outshine the competition.
So you won't see the stellar growth in net new customers either.

And we have to look at vendor relations.
Lawson, SAP, etc ... no longer support IDS as a viable platform. (Gee I wonder why that happened?)

So you're not able to compete on the general application front either.

Yes the funny thing about numbers is that IBM can spin the numbers. Feel proud that they are "growing" at "double digit growth", yet ignore that their overall percentage of market penetration is shrinking. What this really means is that while IBM is growing, the market for the product is growing at a faster clip.

But don't tell that to IBM.

-G

_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD with Windows®.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/
InDeep - 29 Aug 2008 16:31 GMT
> While Eric brings up an excellent point:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN2634118720080826?pa
geNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> (And when will this simple concept sink in to IBM's thick skulls? God
> only knows...)

I don't disagree that you should be educating the sales staff.  But this
is based on the assumption that IDS is worthy to be sold by a sales staff.

Informix is basically a brand-new product now, with the next generation
of developers completely unaware of it.   People here are aware of IDS,
but you should stop by your local dot-com in the valley and ask the kids
what they know about Informix, they might actually cut you off in mid
sentence to ask about the latest MySpace buzz and what concerts are
coming up.  Dare to insult MySQL and they will walk you to the door.

If you have been living outside the Informix world for a while you really
never hear about Informix, other than that it is a "used to be" product,
not a "it's back and better than ever" message.  I have yet to hear about
anybody using IDS besides Cisco and Walmart, and maybe a couple of stories
here from DBAs actually using IDS.  I got an email the other day for a
MySQL position in Chicago, most likely Sears, right.  But I don't see any
trade magazine buzz about Informix, or anything from the major news outlets
about Informix.  Great that Eric posted some reality news about database
sales, this should help Sphincter get back on track.

So we agree that sales people need IDS training, now what.  They talk to a
client and then what?  The client has to find people to support it.  Most
likely they won't find anybody available, or accessible--and by the way--
this is the same buzz I hear about DB2.  Both DB2 and IDS are not well
known or the buzz is typically "We can't find people to work on that".

Your points are all good, and address the front-end, the top-down, but
they don't address the service after the sale.  If the customer is so
weirdly compelled to actually use and install IDS, who they gonna call to
actually work on it?  Old guys like me? Maybe if I'm in a risky mood,
and don't mind soiling my resume with yet more useless experience with IDS.

No, a smart manager is not going to buy something they can't find people
to support it.  Plain and simple.

So going top-down is nice, it's a lot of cock-waiving like the clown sez,
but it doesn't seal the deal.  You have to have a base of people out there
that can support the product.  Without an already installed base of people,
and not just us old-timers, and loyalists from the goddam IIUG, the product
is not going to go anywhere--except Cisco and Walmart, who obviously are
keeping the product alive.

I'm sure IBM will go through some more of their cyclical behavior, firing
people, shuffling others, trying to boost sales.  They will do the same
things over and over, expecting different results.  Until a real developer
program seeds the market and spreads it out, no market momentum will ever
happen.
Ian Michael Gumby - 29 Aug 2008 17:43 GMT
> From: indeep@indeep.com

> > Unlike Timmy who wants to seed the "developers", the real way to seed
> > the market is to give that market segment a story or an example of how
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't disagree that you should be educating the sales staff.  But this
> is based on the assumption that IDS is worthy to be sold by a sales staff.

Assumption?
If the company that manufactures the product can't sell the product then there's a major problem.
Sorry that's a flaw in your logic.

> Informix is basically a brand-new product now, with the next generation
> of developers completely unaware of it.   People here are aware of IDS,
> but you should stop by your local dot-com in the valley and ask the kids
> what they know about Informix, they might actually cut you off in mid
> sentence to ask about the latest MySpace buzz and what concerts are
> coming up.  Dare to insult MySQL and they will walk you to the door.

Timmy,

You're again not focusing on the issue.

If I walk down "silicon alley/valley/wherever" and ask about Informix, yeah no one is going to know jack.
(Who's fault is that? ;-)

But you shouldn't look at IDS vs mySQL or Postrgress or Derby.

mySQL now owned by Sun was in the right place at the right time. It was free to develop with but you had to pay a small license fee to use in production. (IBM doesn't do this...) And of course mySQL never really hunted down people who put mySQL in to production without first licensing it.
(Something IBM will do with their "TRUE UP" program.)

Postgress is free. So to is Derby.

IDS isn't. So if I were looking at startups, IDS is not a database that would work well in their business model, unless of course, IDS has some feature that they require.

So you can't focus on "buzz" because it won't generate sales or net new customers.
(The cost of implementing IDS as part of your solution will kill your price point, especially if you're a startup and trying to compete in the SMB space.)

> If you have been living outside the Informix world for a while you really
> never hear about Informix, other than that it is a "used to be" product,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> about Informix.  Great that Eric posted some reality news about database
> sales, this should help Sphincter get back on track.

I believe it is Sears, but its a division of Sears. This division is downtown and its well away from Hoffman Estates.
(Which makes things interesting...)

If anyone bothered to read beyond the funny pages, you'd see that Sear's business took a major hit. Well in to the double digits sales loss.
You can blame it on the economy, but guess what. Sears will look to cut costs.

So Gumby, how can Sears cut costs, you say?

Simple: They can redesign their next generation of store systems to detatch the application from the database and then consider moving to a database that offers all the performance they need at a lower cost point. Does mySQL fit that description? Sure. Does Postgress? You bet. And I'm sure there's a handfull of others. (Note: You don't have to buy Postgress, but if you require support, like a publically traded company, the support license costs are much less than those of IBM or Oracle.) Oh and now that Sun owns mySQL, you too can buy support from them.

So, there you have an example of a retailer, one who has a lot of IDS licenses moving to a more cost effective alternative. Now if Michelle P is in charge of store systems, this may actually happen faster than you think.

Now you'll see a bit of shrinkage in the license numbers. That is, if IBM actually published license numbers. ;-)

And this can and will happen.

Of course, there's only one IDS certified IT Specialist who used to be a consultant at Sears. But AFAIK, he also has DB2 customers to support too.
And he doesn't support companies like PeaPod since they're not considered a local client.

But hey!
What do I know? Its not like I was cross matrixed to S&D. Oh wait. I was. :-(

-G

_________________________________________________________________
Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD with Windows®.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/
Daniel Richardson - 29 Aug 2008 18:04 GMT
I wonder what Walmart and Cisco have to offer to get their Informix help if there is none available.

From: InDeep <indeep@indeep.com>
Subject: Re: The funny thing about numbers is that they're just numbers...
To: informix-list@iiug.org
Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 11:31 AM

Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> While Eric brings up an excellent point:

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN2634118720080826?pa
geNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0


> Its just numbers and its only a guess as to how the market breaks down.  
> But assuming that it is accurate...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Most of my local sales critters have moved on to different companies,
> even to Oracle. So I may be out of touch, but I haven't heard anything

> about a sales program to take out Sybase from financial accounts. And
> no, it won't happen any time soon, because IBM didn't seed the market.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> (And when will this simple concept sink in to IBM's thick skulls? God
> only knows...)

I don't disagree that you should be educating the sales staff.  But this
is based on the assumption that IDS is worthy to be sold by a sales staff.

Informix is basically a brand-new product now, with the next generation
of developers completely unaware of it.   People here are aware of IDS,
but you should stop by your local dot-com in the valley and ask the kids
what they know about Informix, they might actually cut you off in mid
sentence to ask about the latest MySpace buzz and what concerts are
coming up.  Dare to insult MySQL and they will walk you to the door.

If you have been living outside the Informix world for a while you really
never hear about Informix, other than that it is a "used to be"
product,
not a "it's back and better than ever" message.  I have yet to
hear about
anybody using IDS besides Cisco and Walmart, and maybe a couple of stories
here from DBAs actually using IDS.  I got an email the other day for a
MySQL position in Chicago, most likely Sears, right.  But I don't see any
trade magazine buzz about Informix, or anything from the major news outlets
about Informix.  Great that Eric posted some reality news about database
sales, this should help Sphincter get back on track.

So we agree that sales people need IDS training, now what.  They talk to a
client and then what?  The client has to find people to support it.  Most
likely they won't find anybody available, or accessible--and by the way--
this is the same buzz I hear about DB2.  Both DB2 and IDS are not well
known or the buzz is typically "We can't find people to work on
that".

Your points are all good, and address the front-end, the top-down, but
they don't address the service after the sale.  If the customer is so
weirdly compelled to actually use and install IDS, who they gonna call to
actually work on it?  Old guys like me? Maybe if I'm in a risky mood,
and don't mind soiling my resume with yet more useless experience with IDS.

No, a smart manager is not going to buy something they can't find people
to support it.  Plain and simple.

So going top-down is nice, it's a lot of cock-waiving like the clown sez,
but it doesn't seal the deal.  You have to have a base of people out there
that can support the product.  Without an already installed base of people,
and not just us old-timers, and loyalists from the goddam IIUG, the product
is not going to go anywhere--except Cisco and Walmart, who obviously are
keeping the product alive.

I'm sure IBM will go through some more of their cyclical behavior, firing
people, shuffling others, trying to boost sales.  They will do the same
things over and over, expecting different results.  Until a real developer
program seeds the market and spreads it out, no market momentum will ever
happen.

_______________________________________________
Informix-list mailing list
Informix-list@iiug.org
http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

     
InDeep - 29 Aug 2008 18:54 GMT
They hired old dogs and offshores to do the work.   They can get people
new to the game or try and find a few old timers, but my guess is that
they probably found an offshore or two cuz they're CHEAP and fits in with
corporate american management to get cheap offshores.  I'm guessing in the
future they will expand their H1Bs.  Right now they get 3 H1Bs directly,
and with Infosys having a whopping +4000 here in the US, they can get even
more, not to mention the L1s that can work here without a quota.

> I wonder what Walmart and Cisco have to offer to get their Informix help
> if there is none available.
InDeep - 29 Aug 2008 18:57 GMT
> They hired old dogs and offshores to do the work.   They can get people
> new to the game or try and find a few old timers, but my guess is that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and with Infosys having a whopping +4000 here in the US, they can get even
> more, not to mention the L1s that can work here without a quota.

Forgot to mention Cisco's H1B quota count ( not through another offshore agency ) :

CISCO LINKSYS LLC - 3
CISCO SYSTEMS INC - 324

>> I wonder what Walmart and Cisco have to offer to get their Informix
>> help if there is none available.
 
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